Re: CT Says God’s Not An Asshole

 Ok, summarily I called the Old Testament God “an asshole” and Chris Taylor thought it was an overstatement/falsehood. A few days after the post, he wrote this rebuttal which is up on his blog.

This my response to it. His rebuttal is lengthy, so I’m just going to link the un-chopped up version. My words are in bold, his are in regular text (his are occasionally bolded; you can tell mine apart from his because his bolded words are always scripture and mine are always preceded by >>). Also, it is worth noting that I removed the scripture as it took up A LOT of space and because you can just go and read it at his blog if you wish.

http://sharpeningiron.wordpress.com/rebuttal-to-an-atheist/

My original post is available at

http://chillinatthecabstand.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/why-god-is-an-asshole-part-i/

…

“Recently I have had the opportunity of having conversations with an Atheist that I ‘ran into’ on another Christian’s blog. 

We have had some conversations but nothing really in depth until recently. He made some comments about his perception of God and I offered to show him a different viewpoint on his understanding of God.  First it is interesting to note that all of his examples are from the Old Testament. It is truly a shame that so many times the Old Testament is misread and mishandled by both Christians and non-Christians.  Now, his conversation about God is truly gritty and might bother some of you. For that I truly do apologize.”

>>Notice that I said the Old Testament god was an asshole and made no comment on the New Testament one, who I don’t perceive to be (much) of an asshole except for the whole “eternal damnation” thing.

…

“God drowned everyone, including children and sinless animals, when he could have used his infinite knowledge to predetermine that they would turn out bad and just not make them or he could have magically “poofed” away all the bad people

.God does not override the choice to obey or disobey by forcing people to act, or behave a certain way. As a matter of fact, we will see that God actually strengthens our resolve to continue to obey or disobey once the choice is made!!”

>>This doesn’t seem to make much sense – you see, my point was that he could have just poofed them instead of putting Noah through this whole ordeal or that he could have just not made people he knew he was going to eventually exterminate. This would have saved Noah the time and effort and, more importantly, billions of animals’ and people’s lives.

Besides, how is it free will to kill so many people for not doing what you want? That’s really the bottom line here – God killed everyone alive except for one family because people weren’t doing what he wanted. That is not free will. The other people could have converted and been forgiven, right? So why does God just straight up kill them instead of letting them live their lives and “hopefully” repent sometime during the course of their lives?

Additionally, humans, unlike the conceptual God, can change their minds, meaning they are capable of repentance, for example. They could have changed. God strengthens our resolve once we make a choice? Well, humans are capable of taking back a choice or changing their minds, so God is clearly inhibiting free will here. I am positive that at least some of those people God drowned would have repented.

Sometimes you need to destroy and rebuild – which is the moral of this SYMBOLIC story – but not when it involves people and harmless animals’ lives. This is analogous to a mother drowning her kids because they have bad manners.

…

“[There were scriptures here}

God desires for no one to perish, but He allows us to perish. But our actions determine whether or not we perish. If you repent, you are sorrowful. Sorrowful for what? For your disobedience. So He desires us to be sorrowful of our disobedience. Because sorrow according to the will of God leads to salvation:"

>>I'm glad you quoted that, as it completely proves my previous rebuttal point - if he doesn't want them to perish, but wants them to repent, why did God just kill everyone instead of letting them live and repent?

...

"[There were scriptures here]

Was God sorry because He didn’t know this would happen? No, He was regretful because the time had arrived of their wickedness and hence their destruction. Perhaps He was grieved at the very act of destruction as it is the opposite of creation. Not sure.”

>>Well, since the people and animals he drowned were just regular people and animals, Noah’s family’s and his animals’ offspring would eventually spawn “evil” people again. Not all of them would be “evil” (as if such a label is in any way fair or accurate), but there would be a good amount that would turn evil again.

And as we can see God’s action’s effect in this modern day, killing everyone did nothing since there is still so much evil in our world.

Why not drown everyone again? Yes, he made a covenant with Moses, but why did he make that covenant if killing everyone was the best solution for removing evil from society that his surprisingly limited intellect could devise?

…

“God turns us over to the lusts of our hearts and flesh. He allows us to worship the creation, rather than the creator. We have the choice to obey Him or not to obey Him .But guess what? There is even some good news here.”

>>Here’s the thing that I always thought was weird about how “nice” God is to let us do “bad” things… He’s making our situation worse. If we can’t do bad things, we are guaranteed to make it into heaven, but if we can sin, there is a chance – a good chance – we’ll get completely screwed in the end.

So God changes our situation from Win-Win to Win-Lose, which is obviously worse than Win-Win.

And, in the Old Testament, which we are discussing, he DOESN’T allow the worship of foreign gods, as is shown over and over. In fact, it’s in the Moses story, when God has Moses kill thousands of the Jews and make them drink ground-up-statue water because of one golden cow. If that’s not jealousy and restrictions on what we can worship, I don’t know what is.

Besides, your statement that God gives us free will and lets us indulge in our carnal, fleshly lusts and worship earthly things is pretty antithetical to your argument that God punished the Jews as soon as they did bad things, meaning he would be interceding over and over and over to punish and prevent such deeds. This shows that he felt a need to constantly step in and punish them for exercising their free will.

…

“Romans 5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

>>This is a very bizarre passage. If I am reading it correctly, it is saying that when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit, death entered the world as some sort of curse or punishment.

But isn’t death a reward and life a punishment? (Just biblically, not in real life) Think about it – life has sin, punishment, and constant evil. Death means release from evil and eternity spent with God being infinitely happy. This passage makes no sense, as it seems to be saying that people dread death, when Christians, Jews, and Muslims should all be overjoyed to die and go to Paradise or Heaven or wherever.

…

“The transliterated Greek word for imputed here is ellogeo which means “to charge to one’s account, impute”. So their sin was not charged to them, yet they died. Was this a truly spiritual death? A complete destruction? Death with a second chance?

I have no idea how the author meant death here. Perhaps a study for another time. But regardless, sin and disobedience was not imputed to them because there was no law.”

>>I don’t get this part’s relevance to our discussion. Seems like just a musing about that passage… But say whatever you want to, I suppose.

…

“So is GOD [a jerk] here?

1.) The people determined their own fate
2.) God warned them – They had 120 years to see Noah building the Ark
3.) God graciously does not impute their sin to them
4.) God graciously saved 8 people from the destruction.”

>>Look, if you lived in a desert wastelands with no floods and your neighbor suddenly starts building a huge boat, would you believe him that it was about to flood and repent because your neighbor is building a boat in a desert? No, you would think he was some sort of psychopath.

Well, maybe not you, but the average person.*

God “graciously” saved 8 people? That’s like how something like 80% of the people whose houses and possessions were destroyed in Hurricane Katrina said it strengthened there faith in God – God “saved” 8 people and killed billions/millions (thousands in the case of Katrina). All of those mountains of bodies are people who aren’t alive to realize that God is, quite simply, a monster.

…

“I think we can say that definitely He was not, especially regarding the fact that sin was not imputed to those that were destroyed. God would have been well within His “rights” to destroy His creation utterly.”

>>This is the kind of reasoning you could use to justify this one episode of “Oprah” I saw where this guy beat his wife senseless (literally) for asking him if he wanted some lunch. How could anyone not think that Noah was psychotic for building a boat in the middle of a desert? And don’t say it was because Noah said God told him to or whatever, because that’s the same basic thing Jim Jones claimed when he got everyone to drink the Cyn-Aid (get it? lol) at Jonestown. Really, I’ve heard the tapes. That one psycho from Heaven’s Gate thought he was a reincarnation of Jesus, too. Mormons also think they have a direct communication with God.

So many people make these claims – most of them are raging psychopaths, like Jim Jones – and no sane person can take them seriously.

…

“This is a prime example of the victim mentality that has swept this planet. Everyone is a victim you say?  They had the opportunity to follow Noah’s example, yet they did not. Noah found favor in God’s sight. Why didn’t anyone else obey? Who is to blame? God or us? We are. ALWAYS. We disobey. We get punished. You don’t like it? No one does.”

>>Weren’t you just saying that God lets us do what we want? That would mean he doesn’t punish us for not doing what he wants (until the next life). Your argument is rife with this contradiction.

No sane person could have taken Noah seriously, as I previously stated.

…

” God banished Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden, although his infinite knowledge should have allowed him to know that Satan was in the garden and that Adam and Eve would sin. Set ‘em up and knock em down! Why not just banish Satan before the harm is done?

Please see the reasons in PART I about God overriding human choice to obey or disobey. He will not do it, even if it (appears to us) to be in His “best interest”. Perhaps this goes with being the CREATOR. Why have a creation that you force to behave a certain way? That is nothing more than a robot.”

>>That doesn’t mean that God couldn’t have removed Satan when he knew he would trick them into eating. What was Satan doing in the Garden, anyway? Shouldn’t he have been banished since the Garden is basically equivalent to Heaven? Notice that I didn’t say “Why didn’t God stop them from eating?” I asked instead why God let Satan into his heavenly oasis. That makes no sense.

(PS Please don’t respond by saying that God didn’t let him in, but that Satan entered – what, can’t God keep people out of the Garden? He did it with Adam and Eve!)

…

“The ability to have a will, to choose to obey God or not, is the greatest gift He can give His creation. It is one of the ways God shows His love to us.”

>>Here you are refuting an argument I never made.

…

“You would call God [a jerk] for allowing this to happen? Even with Him knowing the pain He would have to endure to reconcile His creation with His holiness??
You would call God [a jerk] for giving us the ability to obey Him or disobey Him? That makes Him [a jerk]?
You would BLAME God for giving you the ability to choose obedience or disobedience? You would BLAME God for giving you the gift of choice?”

Sad.”

>>Here you go again, constructing straw men, attacking arguments I never even MADE, and running with words you put in my mouth. I’m just going to disregard this little paragraph, as I think that anyone who is going to be objective while reading this can see right through this paragraph and subsequently pity it.

…

“God kills livestock, crops, fish, and children in Egypt so that Pharoah will release his slaves. What, was an all-powerful God incapable of just appearing to Pharoah and saying “I am the Lord your God, let my people go,” effectively converting the Pharoah (and Egypt) as well as releasing the slaves without any pain or suffering? God even tells Moses that He has hardened Pharoah’s heart so that Pharoah will not listen, making it seem as if God is just torturing Egypt for the sheer [heck] of it.

This is one of my absolute favorites because people ALWAYS pull this one out.”

>>And Christians never have an answer.

…

“For this one, we have to go back to scripture. This story takes place in Exodus Chapters 1-15. Obviously I am not going to post the whole thing here.In Exodus 1-3 we see the birth of Moses, the suppression of God’s people by Pharaoh and the flight of Moses after he killed an Egyptian.

[There was scripture here]

So God sees the affliction of Jacob’s decendants (See my earlier post on the “Draconian Laws of the Old Testament” for better history of this), and He picks Moses to go in and bring Jacob’s descendants out of Egypt. (See my earlier post on “Revisiting Pharaoh, Moses and God”).”

>>Okay…

…

“Now check this out:

Exodus 3:18-22
18″They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’
19″But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion.
20″So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.
21″I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed.
22″But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

Did you catch verse 19?

“BUT I KNOW THAT THE KING OF EGYPT WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO GO, EXCEPT UNDER COMPULSION [chazaq - strong,stout,mighty; compelled by a mighty hand;courage]“.

Wow! God already knows Pharaoh’s intent, and what He {God} will have to do.”

>>Is it just me, or is it incredibly unimpressive that God knew that Pharoah wouldn’t obey such a stupid request as “Free the slaves”? As I said in my earlier post (“God is a Masochist PART I”), this would have crippled Egypt as a nation and left it in ruin. Moses was basically asking Pharaoh to shoot himself in the foot.

This is one reason that Exodus is so obviously made up – with an emotionally crippled Pharaoh, all of their slaves leaving, and their entire army being drowned, Egypt would have been swiftly conquered by its enemies, who would have documented the event, and Egypt would probably not exist as its land would be sucked up into another, more powerful nation. It just doesn’t add up.

…

“Now Notice verse 20:

“I wil strike [nakah - SMITE] Egypt with all My miracles [pala - WONDERS]

So why does God intend to strike/smite Egypt? Because Pharaoh will not let the descendants of Jacob out of Egypt without fear of God.
God knows Pharaoh and what choice he has made.

So Pharaoh made up his MIND, but the flesh is weak after all. So Pharaoh’s flesh might become weak. He might cower before God and let the people go when he sees the wonders of God. But this would NOT be Godly sorrow. This WOULD BE worldly sorrow. (See our 2 Corinthians verse above).
So God will harden Pharaoh’s heart. He will strengthen (chazaq) it.

Here is where we see the first instance of God saying He will harden Pharaoh’s heart:

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

The word harden here is again chazaq (304a).  To be, grow firm or strong, strengthen.

So, God will strengthen Pharaoh’s heart [flesh], to give strength to Pharaoh’s choice [mind or will], for Pharaoh to accomplish Pharaoh’s own will. Pharaoh’s choice, before God supernaturally intervenes, would be to disobey God. God KNOWS this. So God strengthens Pharaoh’s heart so Pharaoh will be true to his own choice of disobedience.”

>>Yes, I am already familiar with your “God was just strengthening Pharaoh’s will” argument. Why would God do something like that?

Pharaoh would have changed his mind instantly if God appeared to him in a vision, as I have stated in earlier posts. And that’s what God wanted (for him to change his mind), so it makes no sense that God would make Pharaoh stronger in his resolve, which is also corrupting Pharaoh’s free will. Which God would never do, right?

This is why I suggest that the Old Testament God is some sort of sick masochist, as he uses cruel, hypocritical, inefficient ways of getting things done that always seem to involve genocide and general destruction and humiliation. You argument just doesn’t hold up to even the slightest examination.

…

“Even after Pharaoh relents, he changes his mind and pursues the Israelites. Again, disobedience. Disobedience to God brings about wrath and judgment.”

>>How could he not disobey God if God “hardened (strengthened, whatever) his heart” so he couldn’t change his mind?

…

“Also, keep in mind our earlier verse about the non-imputation of sin before the law.

Also if God is truly the Alpha and the Omega, then He knows the beginning to the ending of His creation, then He knows the choices we will make and they are “factored in”.

So again, I ask you: Is God [a jerk]? Who made the choice to obey or disobey?”

>>Yes, yes, he is. You have not shown in any way that God is not a sadistic asshole. All you have shown is how contradictory scripture is and how well you know the bible and its original language (which is commendable in that it must be very difficult to learn).

…

“After drowning Egypt’s entire army for trying to save their country from sure ruin, God gives Moses sexist, useless commandments before having Moses kill thousands of the Jews God killed Egyptians to save. God then sends a plague among the Jews and kills Moses before he can reach the promised land. Torture? Yes. [bleep] [bleeping] yes.

I think my post “Draconian Laws of the Old Testament” shows clearly the problem with the first part of this statement about the sexist laws, and having Moses kill thousands of Jews. If you will read that post, you will clearly see the choice to be disobedient to God, and God executing His perfect judgment. The choice of the individuals to disobey “forces” God to execute His judgment.

Yes, God did indeed send a plague among the Jews. Why? Because they continued to disobey.”

>>I may take back that thing about you being a kind person. Well, I probably won’t, but this sense of justice you are trying to promote here is just revolting. I really cannot believe that you actually think it was right to torture-kill 50,000 people over one statue and some other unnamed injustice the Bible sort of hints at, especially when God supposedly allows people to worship other gods (hint: no he doesn’t).

…

“First they argued against God when the spies were sent to investigate the land that He promised to give them”

>>If I know the scripture right, there were something like 4 other civilizations living in the promised land. Who wouldn’t be skeptical and argue with you a little about how safe it was to just stroll into some foreign lands and say “What’s yours is now ours!” (actually, they enslaved and murdered people, except for the women, whom they kept as sex slaves… so they didn’t exactly “stroll in).

…

“NUMBERS 14:11-12
11 The LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst?
12″I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they.”

So they first rebel against God and are judged. They are forced to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until every person who rebelled had died. (Numbers 14:22-23)

Ok so they are in the wilderness wandering around. While they are wandering, they are still multiplying. Increasing in number and might. But many of them still choose to disobey. In fact, its this dissension that leads God to intervene and send the plague. We find it in the Book of Numbers as well.

[There was scripture here]“

>>See my last two comments.

…

“Again we see the PEOPLE being disobedient, THEN God judging (by plague).Why does Moses die before reaching the promised land? We find that in Deuteronomy 32:48-52, and the actual disobedience in Numbers 20:8-12.”

>>Again we see people being slightly disobedient and God torture-killing them so excessively that it wouldn’t even fly in a slavery-era Texas.**

…

“[There was scripture here]

So we see God telling Moses where to strike the rock and bring water for the thirsty Israelites. HOWEVER, what happens? Look at verse 10. Moses and Aaron take credit for it. They say, “…shall WE bring forth water for you out of this rock?”. They do not give credit to God, they are disobedient in their charge. God issues His judgment on them in verse 12.

Deuteronomy 32:48-52
48The LORD spoke to Moses that very same day, saying,
49″Go up to this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab opposite Jericho, and look at the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the sons of Israel for a possession.
50″Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people,
51because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel.
52″For you shall see the land at a distance, but you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving the sons of Israel.”

Here we see the execution of God’s judgment that He passed in Numbers 20:12, and He reiterates the reason why this judgment must be.”

>>So, if Campbell donates $100,000 worth of tomato soup to a local soup kitchen and the servers say “Form a line and we’ll give you food,” is it justifiable for Campbell to “smite” the “awful” servers for not clarifying who is REALLY giving the homeless people food? Moses just had a slip of tongue that I’m sure wasn’t supposed to be blasphemy and God completely overreacted. Completely.

…

“God is [a jerk] you say? Curse God you would? Torture, you say?

Weep at your pitiful ignorance do I.

You can try to refute this as much as you want. You can cry foul, decry scripture, or decry me, or even decry God.

You will NEVER be able to deny this truth about GOD’s relation to us:

DISOBEDIENCE COMES FIRST. THEN COMES JUDGMENT. ALWAYS.

You have been warned by God. God has been explaining and illustrating this TRUTH for thousands of years. We are given scripture, we have been given prophets, and most of all, we have been given the death and resurrection of JESUS CHRIST.”

>>I thought the last few paragraphs were just seeping in disgusting morals and ignorance, but this just really takes our whole discussion down a notch. Or hundred.

…

“Now you know you have a choice if you did not before. You have been warned again. Will you continue to disobey God?”

>>Yes. He has “hardened” my heart. lol

…

“The ultimate choice to be obedient? How about the greatest commandment:

Matthew 22:36-38
36″Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37And He said to him, ” ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38″This is the great and foremost commandment.

So you are now given the choice again. As clearly as possible.

Will you obey God and LIVE?

Or will you continue to disobey God and be judged?”

>>I hereby officially renounce the Christian/Jewish God, as well as all of his institutions, churches, and masochistic tendencies and morals. I laugh at his followers’ threats eternal damnation and torture, for it is a complete untruth.

…

…

*This isn’t meant to be a personal attack, I just mean that you might be more likely to believe someone claiming divine inspiration than your average person because of your strong faith and spirituality.

**That’s a joke.